An Atheist-Muslim Dialog
What follows is a short dialog of my responses to an atheist named Heretic on the Liberty Forum website:
First of all morality is subjective, what is moral and immoral is determined by men who have the power to make that determination. It is subjective: the cheetah is immoral to the antelope that is losing it's life, but moral to the kits whose life will be saved by the antelope. It is thus in human society as well. One man's meat is another man's poison.
That is your definition of morality my friend not mines. When that cheetah chases down the antelope and with his powerful teethe bite into him and kill him that is an extremely moral act! When he enjoys the meal and relish over his catch and when hungry seeks to find another antelope to devour again that cheetah is doing something holy indeed and sacred before ALLAH. Why? Because he is doing what ALLAH created him to do and that is highly moral! When a Muslim slaughter an animal and invokes the name of ALLAH saying by your permission oh ALLAH I slaughter this animal. You created hunger in me and have provided a way for that hunger to be fulfilled. That too is an act of reverence like the cheetah to ALLAH. When I make love to my wife and we take each other to uncharted levels of sexual joy and ecstasy and endeavor to gain the maximum pleasure from the act that too is an act of ALLAH, in fact it is holy and I dare say glorious indeed! (smile). Uh Uh No sin here my friend but an act of worshipping ALLAH in Islam! Why? Because ALLAH created my sex and provided a way for my sexual desires to be fulfilled. I had nothing to do with that creation. I am like a visitor who is using all these things provided to me by a most generous ALLAH. As such I am living according to the nature in which He has created me. I do not define morals by your standards. I define morality by ALLAH’s standard which is when ANYTHING in His creation lives according to the nature in which ALLAH has created it in.
The Quran says: "Our Lord is He Who gave to each (created) thing its form and nature, and further, gave (it) guidance." Chapter 20, verse 50.
The animals have their guidance from ALLAH in their instincts. Human beings as defined as ‘hu’ pointing to the flesh and ‘man’ pointing to the mind have dual identities. Man is not ruled by instincts like the animals although his ‘hu’ would like him to be. But like a man riding a horse and controlling its movements the mind rides the ‘hu’ and masters it. The nature in which ALLAH has created the human being requires guidance. That guidance for the ‘mind’ comes through the revelations from ALLAH. Just like an inventor who invents a car will provide a manual for the proper operation of that car, scripture, revelation and guidance -- as in the Quran -- is the manual for the proper operation of the human being. You can ignore the manual if you like but to do so would be to your own ruin. When a human being lives according to the nature in which he is created he becomes like the celestial bodies and everything in ALLAH’s creation that submits to their natural roles -- thereby fulfilling his destiny and achieving a state of peace and oneness with the universe.
The guidance that is followed by all Muslims is the revealed objective truth and reality that is in the Quran. This guidance is available to all Muslims regardless of their stature in society.
If a religious leader makes a decree or judgment that is not in line with that guidance then he is not followed. The true Muslim says, “Iyyaka Naabudo waa Iyyaka Nasta’een!” “Thee ALLAH is the only one I worship and Thee ALLAH is the only one I seek for aid!” As such the ownership is on every individual Muslim to make ALLAH, not men, the final authority in their lives.
The men who are given leadership authority in a truly Muslim society are more servants than dictators. They are serving the people by administering the guidance that is revealed in the Quran. In fact Muslims are not supposed to blindly follow anyone. When one make the declaration for becoming a Muslim they say, “Ashadu inlah illaha illALLAH wa Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasullulah” “I bear witness that there is no god but ALLAH and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of ALLAH!” The Arabic word used for bearing witness means that the individual is seeing with their own eyes. He is consciously making his declaration not from following someone else but from his own determination. The idea of blind following has no place in Islam.
Women, for their part, many but not all, have a biological need to breed, for that they need a male strong enough to provide and protect her and her brood.
Women have that need, and chose to express it should by all means be allowed to, however in a theocracy, "deviance" can not be tolerated, for if one is allowed personal choice, freedom, respect and equality, then others will demand it as well.
In fact at root this fear of "contagion" lies behind the so called cultural war, the Selection of that moron called President and CIC, and it underlies why the Constitution of the US did not accord women equal rights or even status as humans. Until the very late 19th Century women could not even own property, and could not vote until 1922. Afghanistan followed in 1924.
Yes indeed American women got the right to vote and even own property in the 19th century. When do you think Islamic women got the right to vote and own property? It was 1400 years ago. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) through the guidance of Allah gave women the right to vote, own property and even initiate divorce more than 1400 years ago. Muslim women were way ahead of western women in that regard. Even today in the short, less than 60 year freedom from colonialization in the Muslim world, Islamic women have been able to achieve something that American women have not been able to achieve in more than 200 years of democracy and freedom. What is that you ask? In three Muslim countries Bangladesh , Pakistan and Indonesia Muslim women were ELECTED leaders of their country!!! They became the head honchos over Muslim men in their countries! How is that possible when Islam is a backwards religion suppressing women??? This was a vote and not a puppet placement as in so many Arab countries? I guess somewhere along the line you were told and swallowed a lot of lies about women in Muslim societies. Before you judge go read the pages of Quran and find out for yourself what Islam really says about women!
The institution of marriage is there for our women. They are not to be treated as sex objects from the animal world dropping litter for males simply because they can breed. No, they are to be respected for the great creature ALLAH has made them. Not as a female dog but she is to be seen as a mind and loved, cared for in a beautiful relationship of marriage. The children that she has will also have that protection. No my friend, our women will guard their chastity so that they can get the full blessings and benefit when they give of themselves. The animal life is certainly not for them! Let us alone please and let us respect our women as minds and not just sexual partners to mate with like animals. No, her voice is to be heard in the addressing of issues not like what the church says about her.
Lastly, a childish perception of reality and the world will lead to all kinds of problems. As an example, human beings learn only after problems developed that if you kill all the carnivores in the jungle there will be problems for the whole ecosystem. There is a balance in nature and everything in nature has a role in keeping that balance. By killing all of the ‘bad’ tigers, lions, etc. we may think we are doing a good thing but in the long run our actions will bring more harm than good. There are natural roles that ALLAH created for men and women that do not make one superior over the other. These are roles if not respected would lead to an imbalance that would cause all kinds of chaos in society. The immature mind does not know that and charges ahead with all kinds of proclamations but ALLAH’s guidance is wisdom and universal truths for all times. In Islam a woman can and is allowed to reach the highest mental and spiritual heights as a man. But she has a definite role as a mother and first teacher and caretaker of her children. At the same time we will not allow our women to be construction workers, firemen, and other masculine roles in our society. Suppression!! You may think so, but we do not want to upset the ecosystem that you happen to know nothing about!!!
In a theocracy the "holy men" are the arbiters of what is the will of ALLAH, what is good or bad, what is wrong or evil. I don't trust the judgment of men, especially those who presume to speak for a ALLAH, they are ventriloquists.
If you don’t trust the judgment of men, how can you trust your own judgment in your judgment of men? After all you are a man too. A real paradox isn’t it? The universal guidance for all aspects of life contained in the Quran and the example of our Holy Prophet (pbuh) is all that we need and we are happy with that! The difference between my judgment and your judgment is that I KNOW what that guidance is whereas you do not. Anything that you say would be like barking at the moon to me because you are not addressing my reality!
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